In July 2022, President Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, offered a historic address at the 2022 Notre Dame Religious Liberty Summit in Rome, Italy. He called for a global effort to defend and advance the religious freedom of all of God’s children in every nation of the world.
While he was in Rome in 2022, President Oaks participated in a Church News interview about religious liberty — detailing why it should matter to people of faith, as well as those of no faith.
This episode of the Church News podcast — released on July 4, Independence Day in the United States — celebrates essential religious liberty freedoms.
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Transcript:
President Dallin H. Oaks: The members of our Church are members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And fundamental to that doctrine is the right and the obligation of individuals to choose to do what keeps the commandments of God and what furthers the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ as He taught it. Without religious freedom, we are not free to do that.
Sarah Jane Weaver: I’m Sarah Jane Weaver, editor of the Church News. Welcome to the Church News podcast. We are taking you on a journey of connection as we discuss news and events of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Sarah Jane Weaver: Last year, President Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, offered a historic address at the 2022 Notre Dame Religious Liberty Summit in Rome, Italy. He called for a global effort to defend and advance the religious freedom of all of the children of God in every nation of the world. While he was in Rome, President Oaks also sat in the visitors’ center of the Rome Italy Temple and spoke to the Church News about religious liberty and why it should matter to people of all faith as well as those of no faith.
This episode of the Church News podcast, released on July 4, the United States’ Independence Day holiday, celebrates essential religious liberty freedoms and features President Oaks’ 2022 Church News interview in Rome. We begin with President Oaks explaining what Latter-day Saints should understand about religious liberty.
President Dallin H. Oaks: There are really two aspects to having more people understand religious liberty properly. First of all, some people think it stands for too much; that religious liberty should dominate every other consideration. Secondly, there are some people who think it is dominated by other considerations, legal and policywise. And so, we are trying to carve out the middle ground. Well, I have a real feeling for religious liberty. I like the analogy of having religious liberty in your DNA. And I surely have it there because of the persecutions suffered by my ancestors and the ancestors of my wife, Kristen. That gives religious liberty a priority and a motivation.
Sarah Jane Weaver: He said even people of no faith should have a significant interest in religious liberty.
President Dallin H. Oaks: The most effective representation of religious liberty is a representation that stands up for people of faith or no faith, because even people of no faith have a great interest in what can be done by religions and believing people who speak up for freedom generally, which we try to encourage. I [spoke during the 2022 Notre Dame Religious Liberty Summit in Rome, Italy] about religious freedom for all people of faith or no faith. In preparing for that, I have tried to look at the conditions that exist in different countries in the world where there are no consideration or positive discouragement of religion, where there is a state church which is aggressive and discouraging any other religious faith, or for conditions where there are a variety of churches which have no state opposition, but they have a hard time cooperating on issues of common interest.
That has not been my common way of thinking about religious freedom when I proceeded from the United States Constitution and assumed the conditions that exist in the United States, which are among the most favorable conditions in the world as to religious freedom. The members of our Church are members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And fundamental to that doctrine is the right and the obligation of individuals to choose to do what keeps the commandments of God and what furthers the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ as He taught it. And without religious freedom, we are not free to do that. The whole purpose and the essential environment of the Church depends upon freedom of choice.
Part of the revelations that the Lord has given to the restored Church are the teaching that God inspired the United States Constitution and that it was for all people. The relevance, the importance, of that document does not stop at the borders of the United States. Now, when you get outside the United States, they have different systems of law, different constitutions and cultures. So, different countries will adopt these principles or choose to ignore them, according to their own sovereignty and culture.
But it is important for Latter-day Saints worldwide to understand that there are fundamental principles in the United States Constitution that were established by God. And that is not every term or provision of the United States Constitution. But things like the sovereignty of the people, the duty of the government to look after the good of the people and to refrain from doing things that are simply in the selfish interest of those who are able to govern at a given time — those are some of the fundamental principles of the United States Constitution that we know to be inspired of the Lord for all people.
Sarah Jane Weaver: All temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are monuments to religious liberty. Looking at the Rome Italy Temple, President Oaks spoke about what temples should mean to Latter-day Saints.
President Dallin H. Oaks: What temples mean to Latter-day Saints is their great symbol of the continuity of life. We are put here on this mortal earth as the second act in a play that has at least three acts: We lived as spirits before we came here, we live in mortality for purposes the Lord has outlined, and life doesn’t end here; it goes on, our identity goes on, to act three. We know that much, though we do not have a lot of detail about it.
The temple stands as a great symbol of the continuity of life and the way the Lord’s purposes for His children are solved by what we can do in mortality for those who died without the message of Jesus Christ or the fullness of the restored gospel. We can do much in the temples to make up for what our ancestors missed because of the conditions of their life.
Under President Nelson, we have had a dramatic increase in the number of temples. I will not cite the figures, because by the time I give you the statistics, they would be outdated. We are growing at the rate of about two announcements per year, 20 new temples in each announcement. That is a pretty heady rate of growth; it’s carefully planned and considered, and the objective is to get temples closer to the people so that any Latter-day Saint with a travel reasonable for their conditions and circumstances can go to a house of the Lord to make the essential covenants of mortality and to provide what we mortals can provide for our ancestors who have gone through the experience of death and who now have a continuation of the right to choose in the spirit world.
Sarah Jane Weaver: President Oaks and his wife, Sister Kristen Oaks, visited Rome in March of 2019, participating in the historic dedication of the Rome Italy Temple.
President Dallin H. Oaks: The feelings that I had — along with my wife, Kristen, when we participated in the dedication of the temple here in Rome — was a feeling of exhilaration that with the approval of the Italian government, with the faith of the Italian members, and with the cooperation — is not too strong a word — of the Catholic Church, the dominant faith in Italy, we were able to build a temple in this great city, which is the seat of Christianity in all the world. And it’s a thrill to be among the great Christian faiths that look to the history of Rome as part of the essential history of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Being in Rome to preach the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is an experience that fills the heart of those who seek to serve the Lord because we are walking in the footsteps of earlier apostles, and we are carrying the message they brought to the world, and doing so in the place where many of them served and some of them gave their lives.
Sarah Jane Weaver: President Oaks offered a historic address at the Notre Dame Religious Liberty Summit in July of 2022. In that address, he spoke of things we should know about religious liberty.
President Dallin H. Oaks: In my talk, I suggested four steps that ought to be taken as we seek to promote religious freedom worldwide. The first two of those suggestions concerned the organization of the effort. Such suggestions as the fact that we need to treat religious freedom in the context of the laws of the country, because God established the governments of men as well as the governments of God. And so, religious freedom needs to fit within the law and the culture and the understandings of the people.
It is not a case where we fail to pay attention to Caesar because we are only following the commandments of God. Do you remember that Jesus used the coin of the realm to teach the principle that we should render unto Caesar — which means to obey Caesar and secular law — the things that are Caesar’s, and that we should follow the commandments of God in the things that God intends for His children. That’s an illustration of what I called the organization that should go forward; it has to be an organization that is suited to the conditions that exist and the sovereignty that has been established in a particular government.
The next two suggestions that I made had to do with the application of the organization that promotes religious freedom. The essential applications that I suggested are twofold. One of them is to unite with other like-minded organizations to promote religious freedom, not to be soloing according to individual preference and interest, but to have the broad interest of trying to unite together, just as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unites with the Roman Catholic Church.
The other essential suggestion is that we should do more to teach the public generally about the advantages that everyone has when religious people have freedom to pursue their doctrinal interests and their commanded service to God. Everyone benefits when we have that freedom. But we need to make a better effort to teach that essential fact than any of us have done individually in the past.
Sarah Jane Weaver: Speaking about the importance of choice, President Oaks said, “Religious freedom is not just the right to believe; it’s the right to carry our beliefs into action.”
President Dallin H. Oaks: The idea of being accountable to God for serving fellow men is a very powerful motivator to produce the kind of advantages from the service of religious believers and religious institutions that we want to promote more effectively for the benefit of all society. One lesson that we need to teach to the public generally is that religious freedom is not just the right to believe; it is the right to carry our beliefs into action. And it is also the right to meet together, to have organizations that teach and advocate the religious principles that benefit society as a whole. [During the COVID-19 pandemic] we were inhibited in meeting together by the proper government [laws], concerned with health conditions and COVID. And so, as we emerge from that condition, it is important for religious people to get back together, because the right to act as an organization — as religions do in hospitals and caring for the poor, and in so many other illustrations — is a very important aspect of religious freedom.
Sarah Jane Weaver: President Oaks also recently offered another historic address on religious liberty at the University of Virginia.
President Dallin H. Oaks: When I was invited to give a lecture at the University of Virginia, I titled the lecture something like “Religious Freedom: Living With Nondiscrimination.” And I was forced to think about the limits that religious freedom operates under. There are laws that inhibit some degree of religious freedom in order to serve the interests of nondiscrimination, for example. And it is shortsighted of religions and religious believers to believe that their particular values — as important and God-given as they are — should be dominant over every other concern of other children of God.
And I yield to none in my understanding of and importance of religious freedom, or religious liberty, as it’s sometimes called. But I have come to realize that God expects us to observe the laws of the place where we live, as well as to prevail in every part of rendering unto God the things that are God’s. And so, it was a growth experience for me to give a lecture at the University of Virginia on the relationship between nondiscrimination and religious freedom.
And I concluded, as I’ve reported in my lecture in Rome, that both sides of that potentially adversarial relationship need to understand more about the concerns of the so-called adversary and how a broad concern about the fundamental interests of a different group of children of God can help us say, “Well, here’s what’s most important to me in religious freedom,” and invite the other side to say, “Well, there’s some things that are important to people who value religious freedom that are not so fundamental to us. The things that are most fundamental to us are the following.” And when we come to understand the positions of our potential adversaries better, we’re better able to live peacefully and with mutual respect under a common set of laws and religious beliefs.
Sarah Jane Weaver: And what does President Oaks want young adults to know about religious freedom?
President Dallin H. Oaks: I have one thought for young adults in the audience. If you have not thought seriously about religious freedom, or if you wonder why it’s important, let me encourage you to think about, “Where would the absence of religious freedom lead society?”
“Where will it lead?” is a question that young adults need to contemplate, because they tend to live in the present rather than to anticipate the future. Someone said once that old people think about the past because they have no future; young people think about the present because they have no past. Well, whatever the truth of that observation, I encourage young adults to consider where society would be, where our lives would be, where our religion would be if we did not have religious freedom.
Part of looking to the future and thinking about what you would lose if we didn’t have religious freedom is the right to choose: the right to choose what to believe, the right to choose what to act upon, what to do because of your beliefs. “Where will it lead?” Think of that.
The only way to make progress on religious freedom worldwide is for people who enjoy religious freedom to think about the circumstances of people who are not religious, not believers, have not yet seen the importance or can not enjoy religious freedom in the conditions of the country where they live. We’ve got to think about religious freedom for all the children of God. And if we don’t, we’re falling short of what our divine Father in Heaven expects us to do. We are all His children. Some of us have blessings that we need to recognize and try to expand for the benefit of all of His children.
Sarah Jane Weaver: In some places of the world, and at some times in our history, people have been persecuted or forced to flee from their homes for their religious or political beliefs.
President Dallin H. Oaks: We respect and believe in helping to teach and support and encourage and improve the lot of individuals who pass from one sovereignty to another. We have so many refugees in the world today. We need to be sympathetic, understanding and welcoming, because in the origin of most peoples on this planet, we are all descended from refugees. Whether you look at Africa, or Europe, or the British Isles, or America, or South America or Asia, it’s hard to find a country that was not affected by or inhabited by refugees at some point. It is an old problem, and we need to live with it more effectively and sympathetically.
Sarah Jane Weaver: At this time, when many have concerns about the political direction of those who lead their nations, President Oaks shared advice for those who worry about the direction or future of their country.
President Dallin H. Oaks: There are obviously serious concerns and doubts in the hearts of many people about their own government or about the trends they see in governments worldwide. I think what I would say to those who are overcome with such doubts is, “Trust in the Lord.” There is a God in heaven, and He watches over all of His children in every nation. And while we are expected to do all that we can, when we’ve done all that we can within the conditions of our own government, the Lord is going to make up the difference for the benefit and blessing of His children in His own good time.
Sarah Jane Weaver: President Oaks said through his career in law, he was prepared to talk about worldwide religious freedom.
President Dallin H. Oaks: For much of my service as an Apostle, I have spoken about religious freedom, and I have often considered how my professional preparation had prepared me for that subject without my intentionally seeking it out. My service as a law clerk in the United States Supreme Court made me acquainted with the operation of that essential branch of government. And my service as a law professor for a decade at the University of Chicago gave me opportunities to speak and write on that subject.
And then, at Brigham Young University, where I served next as president, we had a major challenge from the federal government, under what we know as Title IX — which, as originally drafted, required anyone that had anything to do with federal funding to treat men and women the same in all respects, which would desegregate men’s and women’s dormitories, which we would not accept at BYU. We stood up and fought the government on that in a national fight, where we prevailed, and Title IX was amended for the benefit of universities and colleges nationwide.
And then, when I left Brigham Young University, I went to the Utah Supreme Court for a period of about three and a half years. And the Utah Supreme Court is not a major actor in religious freedom, but by serving as a judge, I was acquainted with what judges can do and what legislators need to do. And through that experience, I reached the conclusion that I’ve stated in my talk, that the best way to approach religious freedom to balance the competing interests — with nondiscrimination and religious freedom, for example — is to work through the legislatures, because the courts only decide the narrow question that is brought before them; I had that impressed as a result of my service on the Utah Supreme Court.
And that caused me to look at the solution to the problem in a different way than I had as a law professor dealing with court opinions. The lawmakers in the lawmaking branch can look at all aspects of a problem and hear the different interests and hold hearings and try to craft a code of laws that deal with all aspects of the problem. So, as I look back on my professional life, I see that I have been led through a series of experiences that have enlarged my view. And now, in this experience in Rome, I’m invited to apply that broad background on a broader front: religious liberty worldwide.
Sarah Jane Weaver: As we conclude this special July 4 podcast with President Dallin H. Oaks, he explains what he knows now about religious freedom and why it is personal to him and his calling as a special witness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
President Dallin H. Oaks: When I was called as an Apostle, I received a calling I had not anticipated — it came as a total surprise to me — and I went immediately to the revelation that explains what an Apostle is to do. He is to testify of the name of Christ in all the world. Now, the name of Christ is not a label, as I found in my research. It is easy to assume that the name is a label, because that’s a common understanding that we apply in other circumstances. But it is clear from the scriptures that to testify of the name of Christ is to testify of the authority of Christ and the work of Christ — the Atonement, and so on — and also the essence, the exalted essence of Christ.
I testify that those ideas are true. I have tried to follow them in my own life, and it has caused me to know, by the testimony of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, our Redeemer. He was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is under the plan of the Father, the Creator of the world. And he is the force, the Light of the World, lighting every person that comes into the world. And His work proceeds through prophets and through the commandments of God and through the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I know those things to be true, and I testify of them in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Sarah Jane Weaver: You have been listening to the Church News podcast. I’m your host, Church News editor Sarah Jane Weaver. I hope you have learned something today about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by peering with me through the Church News window. Please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so it can be accessible to more people. And if you enjoyed the messages we shared today, please make sure you share the podcast with others. Thanks to our guests; my producer, KellieAnn Halvorsen; and others who make this podcast possible. Join us every week for a new episode. Find us on your favorite podcasting channels or with other news and updates of the Church on TheChurchNews.com.
